#341✎ 815LumageTo address SageScript:
1) "These competitions are... dependent upon voters who either did not fairly test all entries or are completely and utterly deranged."
It is likely. A problem with allowing the community to vote is that the community is voting. However, I would discourage interpreting results literally. There's probably at least a ±2 vote error on the counts after the drop.
2) "There is absolutely no incentive for future developers to enter any submissions under these competitions as they currently are being judged."
I suspect that the monetary prize continues to be an incentive for many. That it is illogical? Possible.
I'm sorry you feel that the contests are not worth the effort of participating in them. I hope you can continue to enjoy the rest of the website's services.
I will also admit that my handling of this contest isn't as sharp as in previous sessions due to not having followed it for its duration and only switching in to close it. Usually they run more smoothly. I'll leave my other thoughts until after the voting.
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by Lumage
#342✎ 24SagescriptNight PersonI like the quiet night and sleep late.Express YourselfRNGHiddenEaster EggsGood PageHiddenAchievementsThen I suppose I am disappointed in Democracy in action. I wouldn't be the first and won't be the last. As for the rest of the sites services, I find no fault and am deeply passionate about the furthering of SmileBasic games and resources. For that reason I will continue to improve my submission and post future ones.
I'll just opt out of the stress of entering any competitions with no quality-control and all will be kosher.
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Having just now figured out to check the results of this contests poll I have drawn the following conclusions:
<snip by admin>
Please don't use other people's programs as examples of a bad program. It just hurts the feelings of whoever made the game. You can't lash out due to people not liking your game as much as others..
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by Lumage
#344✎ 143812Me21AdminSyntax HighlighterReceived for creating the code syntax highlighter on SBSNight PersonI like the quiet night and sleep late.Express YourselfSecond YearMy account is over 2 years oldWebsite
Having just now figured out to check the results of this contests poll I have drawn the following conclusions:
<snip by admin>
Please don't use other people's programs as examples of a bad program. It just hurts the feelings of whoever made the game. You can't lash out due to people not liking your game as much as others..
I think it's perfectly fine to make fun of someone's program when they didn't even put any effort into it.
Also, how is this "lash[ing] out"?
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by Lumage
Having just now figured out to check the results of this contests poll I have drawn the following conclusions:
<snip>
Please don't use other people's programs as examples of a bad program. It just hurts the feelings of whoever made the game. You can't lash out due to people not liking your game as much as others..
I think it's perfectly fine to make fun of someone's program when they didn't even put any effort into it.
Also, how is this "lash[ing] out"?
I'm not going to argue with you.
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by Lumage
#346✎ 371SwanBotHalloween 2017 Contest Runner UpI placed 2nd in the SmileBASIC Source Halloween 2017 Contest!Programming ContestIntermediate ProgrammerI can make programs, but I still have trouble here and there. Programming StrengthFirst YearMy account is over 1 year oldWebsite
Having just now figured out to check the results of this contests poll I have drawn the following conclusions:
1) These competitions are clearly thinly veiled popularity contests that are dependent upon voters who either did not fairly test all entries or are completely and utterly deranged. How does SNOW get more votes than Christmas Night, for instance? Christmas Night is an actual creative, playable game and SNOW was only ever meant to be a joke. How in Hades did White: the Game tie with This Game Does Not Yet Have A Title 2? TGDNYHAT2 in any logical frame of reference should have placed much higher than it did. Most perplexing, how do what are essentially largely unfinished tech demos beat out fully fleshed out games that are essentially complete?
2) There is absolutely no incentive for future developers to enter any submissions under these competitions as they currently are being judged. It makes no logical sense, in fact. For instance, you had 2 submissions tie. (They fully deserve the 1st and 2nd place awards, no doubt about it- It fully makes sense for them to have placed where they have, popularity aside.) My doubts are for everything that placed beneath them, such as: why does the second round include anyone other than those 2?
I am of course disappointed in my poll results, as anyone who puts serious time and effort into their work would be, however, it is the overall lunacy of what I have just witnessed happening to everyone involved that has led me to decide never to enter another competition. But since I am addressing my momentary lack of humility already, my submission definitely shouldn't have beaten out at least the top 3, but it should have placed much higher than it did. And it certainly shouldn't have been one vote away from Snow for Cthulu's sake.
3) Shenanigans such as these will not draw more high-quality submissions for this forum, which by admin's admission is the whole point of them in the first place. Indeed, they will likely have the opposite effect.
I may continue to contribute my work to this forum, assuming I'm not banned or the such for sharing my opinions, but I most certainly won't labor under a deadline to compete in a farce like this again. To those of you who entered a VALID submission, one that is at least mostly complete and clearly took innovation and creativity, I salute you, respect you, and wish you the best. To those of you who didn't, why are you here?
I agree with this fully and am happy but also disappointed to have seen my game get such high votes compared to the many other better games, as I've stated a lot I did not enter this to win (and if i somehow did i would give the reward to whomever actually deserved it, so if I somehow win 2nd or something you can hold me to my word on that) but just to put my newly in development game out there.
I'm very happy to all those who voted for me but if all you were being honest you will say that that my game is a tech demo at best.
Games such as Pictoblitz, snow battle, christmas night, cave roller and body toss were much better and a whole lot more deserving compared to mine (even a white screen got higher then 12me's game which was great too!!!!!)
There needs to be some better way of maintaining a fair voting system
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by SwanBot
#347✎ 131WarriorExpert ProgrammerProgramming no longer gives me any trouble. Come to me for help, if you like!Programming StrengthNight PersonI like the quiet night and sleep late.Express YourselfDrawingI like to draw!HobbiesA fair way to do voting would be to ask the voter if they downloaded all the games and played them, and then ask them to number them greatest to least in their opinion of greatness.
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#348✎ 151spaceturtlesVideo GamesI like to play video games!HobbiesAvatar BlockI didn't change my avatar for 30 days.WebsiteIntermediate ProgrammerI can make programs, but I still have trouble here and there. Programming StrengthIt was a toss up between a couple of them so I had to use a random item chooser I found online.
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#349✎ 35cujo1992I don't feel like using the links to specifically highlight quoted text from people... but I think SAGESCRIPT deserves a lot of appreciation for not only calling out concerns with the way in which people voted - but systematically walking through a rational argument behind the reasoning. I found myself applauding the entire way through the read.
And then - PICY3 showed tremendous humility to acknowledge that the voting results didn't make sense even if favorable for PICY3's cause. Such comments are both courageous and honorable.
LUMAGE: I admire your efforts to maintain sanity on this forum. Reading the activity log can sometimes be entertaining as I follow your efforts to keep the machinery running smoothly. At no point would I think to blame you (or your secret/silent co-admins who keep the ship running) for head-scratching voting results. I look forward to your comments after the final votes as I respect your commitment to the forum... but I sense that we the participants in the forum own the voting results....
I am looking forward to playing the next version of Pictoblitz. (even though I stink at these types of games....)
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#350✎ 136ChaseCZIntermediate ProgrammerI can make programs, but I still have trouble here and there. Programming StrengthVideo GamesI like to play video games!HobbiesZelda Is Awesome!I love The Legend Of Zelda!Express YourselfVoting is democratical, i respect that but i just don't get why people vote for games that were made in few hours (maybe minutes), i don't think they really liked them... They just felt bad or thought nobody will vote for them
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#351✎ 24SagescriptNight PersonI like the quiet night and sleep late.Express YourselfRNGHiddenEaster EggsGood PageHiddenAchievements
Having just now figured out to check the results of this contests poll I have drawn the following conclusions:
<snip>
Please don't use other people's programs as examples of a bad program. It just hurts the feelings of whoever made the game. You can't lash out due to people not liking your game as much as others..
I think it's perfectly fine to make fun of someone's program when they didn't even put any effort into it.
Also, how is this "lash[ing] out"?
I'm not going to argue with you.
Those who are offended by what I said could only feel that way if my complaint held any merit- Namely those who put next to no effort into their work when they know they could have done better. I won't apologize for any hurt pride in such circumstances because that was fully my intent. It is also beyond the point- the fault here is with the voting base, because regardless of how you feel on the matter- entries should speak for themselves. Entries such as a single white screen, for instance, should reflect truthfully in the polling results. When it becomes obvious that this is not the case, it robs the contests of the dignity that I passionately feel they deserve, and steps should be taken to restore it.
Furthermore, I'd wager money that I am not the only one to be disappointed by such a complete disregard for their skills and effort. Are you discounting the feelings of the underappreciated and skilled in favor of the unskilled and overappreciated? That's symptomatic of the problem I am trying to address. If your takeaway from my post was that I was only upset because people "didn't like my game as much as others", you are either being intentionally obtuse or need to re-read said post until you see the point.
PS, if you are referring to my having called SNOW a joke, it is because its creator literally labeled it as such.
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by Sagescript
#352✎ 105CelloqueenNight PersonI like the quiet night and sleep late.Express YourselfHalloween 2017 Contest ParticipantI participated in the SmileBASIC Source Halloween 2017 Contest!Programming ContestSpecial AdminHiddenEaster EggsWoah... I didn't know my game was being argued about.
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#353✎ 871snail_HelperReceived for being very helpful around SmileBASIC SourceAchievementsFirst DayJoined on the very first day of SmileBASIC SourceWebsiteNight PersonI like the quiet night and sleep late.Express YourselfIf anyone is upset about the contest results, the only people to blame are those patrons who choose time and time again not to take it seriously—both in submitting and voting. I really don't think there are many of them, but they do exist, and I'm a bit disappointed as well.
I think the democratic, unregulated approach is the only sane way for the staff to handle voting as it is, considering the limits on the polling tool itself. The only thing I would consider changing is enforcing the one-vote limit, as that is the only thing we really can do feasibly, but I don't know if that would simply make the vote distribution worse. Using a nominated group of judges would simply be another popularity contest, and it's not up to a small group of selected people to decide what the community wants or likes. At the end of the day, the contest really isn't about quality as much as it is what people like; "quality" is a loaded and damaging concept in some ways IMO. However, I understand the concerns about people who obviously are voting for bad submissioms because they think it would be funny, or some other reason. It's not a good thing.
I do believe the only way to improve is to change some things in the submission process. It really is imposaible for us to control how people vote, anyway. Not opening submission until a short time after the contest is actually announced is one potential thing to try, as well as vetting entries. Checking the entries is a slippery slope though, because standards of "quality" are vague and loaded, as I mentioned before. A good benchmark is simply clear effort and completeness (i.e. not a white screen.) I also want to point out while a majority of entries are games, these are not strictly game contests and classing certain types of programs above others is unfair.
Another potential change is to wait a week or so after submissions end to open voting. I believe we've done this in the past, to moderate success. I do not see the point of doing two rounds of voting though, if only to break a tie.
Well, I don't run anything around here and I don't think people listen to me so hopefully someone considers the things I said.
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#354✎ 24SagescriptNight PersonI like the quiet night and sleep late.Express YourselfRNGHiddenEaster EggsGood PageHiddenAchievements
I also want to point out while a majority of entries are games, these are not strictly game contests and classing certain types of programs above others is unfair.
I acknowledge and concede your point there. My intention with bringing up the tech-demo bit, however, was to highlight the unfinished aspect. IMO, bringing any entry to a state of completion should be a primary goal where contests are concerned as it showcases better time management and project planning skill.
As for no one listening to you, I don't see that being the case. The fact that I haven't been banned or flamed for sharing my admittedly heated point of view proves, I think, that people (admins included) are willing to entertain each of our opinions.
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by Sagescript
#355✎ 871snail_HelperReceived for being very helpful around SmileBASIC SourceAchievementsFirst DayJoined on the very first day of SmileBASIC SourceWebsiteNight PersonI like the quiet night and sleep late.Express Yourselfsorry for being too lazy to quote
I do agree that people should consider completeness. As 12Me mentioned to me earlier, unfinished projects put up for submission are actually rarely finished later. Maybe we shouldn't encourage this sort of behavior, I don't know. There's some scenarios where it might be fine to vote for an "incomplete" program, if all of the tech is there, it represents all of the core experience, and the unfinished elements are story or something else. This might benefit technical showcases. Basically, we should reward solid workmanship if it's there.
Of course we can't actually control the voting body (and shouldn't IMO) and they'll do whatever they please. Considering the size (and other factors) of our community things like this are just a sad truth and I don't really see if they would come as a surprise.
I should also point out that I didn't vote this time because I didn't get around to playing everything yet. Paying more attention I see that maybe I could have skipped some. 🙃
In all reality I don't really care how the voting comes out unless it's a complete disaster. A bad program never actually wins, it's just that the vote distribution below the top three or so is pretty much random, as far as I've seen. I only care if we get good output from entrants, which we did. The results are just points and sometimes prize money.
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by snail_
#356✎ 24SagescriptNight PersonI like the quiet night and sleep late.Express YourselfRNGHiddenEaster EggsGood PageHiddenAchievementsLOL come to think of it, as an American adult, I should have less expectations for any poll. I know that intellectually, anyways.
Perhaps its my newness around here, but I honestly expected a poll in a forum full of programmers to be reflective of the traits that normally come with being a programmer- I.E. Logic and analytical skills.
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#357✎ 871snail_HelperReceived for being very helpful around SmileBASIC SourceAchievementsFirst DayJoined on the very first day of SmileBASIC SourceWebsiteNight PersonI like the quiet night and sleep late.Express YourselfSome part (maybe small, I don't know) of the SmileBASIC community (in the West, anyway) is kids just starting out programming, or people only interested in playing the games other people make. Be aware that it was marketed partly as a learning tool, and really didn't get much exposure or literature beyond the eShop or Miiverse (again, in the West.) Of course, looking into our site the output you see is mostly from the slightly more experienced users, but that's to be expected.
Not saying this to discount anyone, this is just how it is.
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#358✎ 421MasterR3C0RDHelperReceived for being very helpful around SmileBASIC SourceAchievementsSecond YearMy account is over 2 years oldWebsiteosu! Is Awesome!I love osu!Express YourselfI think for the next contest, an "effort" requirement would definitely be required. I think it's stupid for jokes to rank higher than games with actual effort. I think a decent idea would be "checkpoints", where projects should be uploaded and tested for progress, and if they aren't really improving at all, are disqualified from the contest. It's flawed in some ways (sometimes life might prevent you from working on your contest entries) but I think it could be somewhat of a help for the quality issue we're facing here.
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#359✎ 143812Me21AdminSyntax HighlighterReceived for creating the code syntax highlighter on SBSNight PersonI like the quiet night and sleep late.Express YourselfSecond YearMy account is over 2 years oldWebsite
I think for the next contest, an "effort" requirement would definitely be required. I think it's stupid for jokes to rank higher than games with actual effort. I think a decent idea would be "checkpoints", where projects should be uploaded and tested for progress, and if they aren't really improving at all, are disqualified from the contest. It's flawed in some ways (sometimes life might prevent you from working on your contest entries) but I think it could be somewhat of a help for the quality issue we're facing here.
I don't think it's a good idea to add complicated rules like this. It would be very difficult to judge whether a project is "improving" (and there will end up being arguments with the creator about whether something counts as improvement, especially if there's not a specific definition). You could also just cheat by uploading older versions of your project.
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#360✎ 193ShellyI must question the point of trying to criticize democratic results. Its one thing to be mad at the fact that they didn't check all programs, but its another to try to say "They chose WRONG". That's kind of the point of a poll guys, to get opinions. If people like a game better, that's just the way it is. It is wrong to ask for justification, since we have the right to an opinion.
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by Shelly
